Tug Forum

Specialist Types Of Tug Boat => Classic Diesel Tugs => : geapra January 24, 2013, 15:48:19

: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 24, 2013, 15:48:19
I purchased this tug about 9 years ago at a Rotary fete for $15 AUD not knowing anything about model boats.  When I saw it, I though that it looked like a good couple of weekends modelling and something fun to do in the winter.  Then when I got it home, I saw that it was a complex build, with 3 blueprints and instructions in German.  Hence it has sat on the shelf for 9 years.

However, by now 8 year old son, ever since he could talk, kept asking me when we will build the tug.  My initial reply was at Christmas when you are 8.  Well guess what.  He is 8 and is on his Christmas holidays.  Hence building has begun.

I am a complete novice at boat building, While I have some modelling skills (a Hornby/Bachman OO trains et is in the Garage), my woodworking fines scale modelling is undeveloped and my assistant is 8 – keen as mustard but with an attention span typical for his age.  Any suggestions and comments are more than welcome.  And please, if you seem us doing anything unwise, please point it out (earlier is perhaps best).

When we started building it on the 27th of December, we did not plan to show the build.  Hence I have no photos of bravely cutting the hull to fit the parts to hold the rudder.  However, there are plenty of photos from others on the web that show this – so no great loss.

We originally started with the hull and rudder and have made what I think is good progress.  The only issue that we have had is that when sanding the keel around the foot of the rudder, we cracked the laminated parts holding the rudder.  This necessitated some local re-enforcement and re-gluing.  Paining the hull grey showed many imperfections in the styrene as well as where the repairs had been done and a lot of filling and sanding has been required.  Now that this is complete, the hull has now been painted red.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 24, 2013, 16:49:07
Getting ahead of myself, I'd love to build to a similar standard as the attached
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 24, 2013, 16:58:39
Some hull piccies
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 24, 2013, 17:00:40
And the hull in red
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 24, 2013, 17:02:12
My son and I recently realised that the original plans for installing the remote control equipment are very dated and do not match contemporary radio control equipment at all.  After much consideration of whether to source older gear or to retrofit more contemporary equipment, the contemporary won as again this is not a field that we have any expertise in and if we are to learn, the current technologies are a better place to start.  Consequently we are currently waiting for the hardware to arrive.  Most of it is Turnigy branded from hobbyking.com (6 Ch TX/TX and servos.  The main issue has been the speed controller (as we are using the original Speed600 motor and gearbox).  We have chosen the JPerkins 5510135 marine brushed speed/control.  Hopefully this set up works....
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 24, 2013, 17:11:13
In the mean time we have been working on the superstructure. We have built out the main structure and plan to detail some of the inside shortly – well anything that is really visible through the windows / portholes. 

I must admit, I am disappointed in the quality of the wood cutting that is present with my kit.  All of the wood joins need large amounts of filling and sanding as the cutting is not true.  Anyway – just a small gripe.  I am going through large quantities of Milliput
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 24, 2013, 17:15:22
My son and I have also started on the deck support.  Graupner’s instructions detail that this is done at the same time as mating the deck to the hull.  But as we do not have the remote control equipment yet, it is perhaps best not to join them.  Hopefully this does not provide any major difficulty down the track.  Again the quality of the wood cutting is poor. 
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 24, 2013, 17:21:53
And lastly (for today), a picture of inside the superstructure
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: model tugman January 24, 2013, 23:48:04
Hi and welcome'. It all looks very good so far' you wood problems may in some part be due to the wood drying out over time, a cheaper option to milliput would be to use a two pack wood filler instead or even car body filler,I use both with great success,  keep the pictures coming they are great.  All the best . George.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: russellward January 25, 2013, 00:48:57
I reckon that's got to be great. Working with your young son on a tug model.
Teaching him modelling skills which is great. Bonding -even better, And the joy of running a model and planning the next one.
Great stuff and teaching him some life skills.
BTW I have three daughters and they took a passing interest in my models. But they can all row a boat, hammer a nail, saw some wood and sail a boat and cuss and swear when needed. Life skills......
Brilliant!
The rest of you, take your grandchildren into the shop periodically. We'll hsve this world sorted out before you know it.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Antipodes January 29, 2013, 13:54:18
 ^-^

I purchased one of these in at an online auction yesterday and am very much looking to build it. Like you I have a young son Soon to turn 6) who has become my assistant in our recently started boat building and sailing hobby. He shares similar traits to your own son - impatient, short attention span. It was his impatience that led us to get a Southampton RTR tug to enable him to drive it at our local boat club - sometimes he even lets me take command.

The sooner I get another boat finished the better. :)

I will start the build diary once it arrives. Like you I will be building mine ours with more contemporary running gear.

Kind wish

Bruce
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: russellward January 29, 2013, 14:05:10
They say that you have a special bond with grandchildren: You share a common enemy- their parents!
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 29, 2013, 15:15:08
Thank you for all your encouragement & tips about wood filler.  I have been trying the Squadron Green Putty.  It smells bad and sets really fast.  It seems to be good for filling work where fast setting is required, but less for where some manipulation is required prior to setting.  It contains toluene – so need to be cautious about inhaling the vapours.

Bruce  I wish you all the best.  Hopefully we will build at a similar rate and can help one another.

Meanwhile, my son and I have been working on the wheelhouse. The kit does not include any detail for the inside, but we decided that the windows will allow sufficient viewing for some effort to be worthwhile.  Hence we made a control console and rear panel – see pictures (the timber needs to be clear varnished).  Please note the k-nex based wheel will be replaced by something more suitable in the future.

We also decided to allow the wheelhouse doors to open and close (cutting out the plywood and forming styrene replacements based on the original wooden templates {Graupner provides plywood door shapes to glue onto the superstructure that were useful to form the replacement doors}).  Now to source or make some suitable hinges – any suggestions?  I spotted some 6041/01 Working Brass Single Hinges 6mm  from http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk that may work.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: donald.waller1 January 30, 2013, 05:11:41
 :) :) :) :) :)

Nice looking job so far, your doing well keep up the good work. My grandson is also 6 he's into Train's, car's and boat's and asks if he can help, I love him helping, and it dose give you that bond.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: russellward January 30, 2013, 14:31:23
Right on, bro! That's the age to teach them lifeskills and show them there is more to it than TV and X Box in the world.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 06, 2013, 21:33:25
We have started work on the top deck.  My son and I found this was most enjoyable, fitting the individual bits of timber to the required shape.  When lacquered I expect it will look pretty good.

We also started on the walkways either side of the bridge.  This was very fiddly and very difficult to get accurate (hence the filler that you can see in the picture).  My son gave up early with this one and I was left to finish it.  :  (
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 06, 2013, 21:53:57
Yesterday, much to our excitement, the R/C hardware turned up at the front door, born by a pleasant parcel post delivery person.  A quick assembly and IT WORKS!!!!

Man does that motor pull strongly!!  No way could I hold it with my fingers still.

I will have to put in a fuse to protect the ESC from as stalling motor.  While the specs suggest that it could handle a few seconds of a staled condition, 85 amps is a big ask of the ESC.  A 20w fuse should do as its normal current draw is apparently 12 amps.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Footski February 06, 2013, 23:55:29
All coming along nicely here... cool
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: russellward February 07, 2013, 08:26:26
I love that deck planking. You've done it so well. It's such a pain with big boats especially if laid over steel. !am planning that sort of deck for my model of "Bulli".
I have most of the stem machinery and can't help thinking that midellers sometimes think steam is complicated. I look at all the radio gear and the spaghetti wiring and think that that too is tricky. Everyone to his own trade!
You are getting along well!
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: VANYA February 08, 2013, 03:09:02
If I may,i would like to offer some advice from a previous build regarding the laying of planking??

Some years back  I built a model of a Canterbury J class yacht and wished to plank a deck, and plank the hatches etc as well. Owing to the difficulty of gluing down long lengths of approx 6mm wide planks with a glue from a bottle and its potential hazards of spoiling the surface finish with errant glue I decided to use a pre glued veneer and black linen thread as the caulking.

The underdeck was in ply and after strip cutting the planks which in itself is a challenge being about 36 inches long, the pre glued veneers were more or less ironed onto the deck gently in position. After this a length of black linen thread was tack glued adjacent to the laid plank, just enough to hold it down, thence the next plank once ironed down would provide the thread with enough adhesive to firmly bind the planks and threat together. This process was repeated and at any corners or join the thread can be easily terminated or re routed so as to provide a continuous caulk.

I was very happy with the result as a first try and as the adhesive is just waiting for heat to set it in place does not rely on speed to beat the curing glue before the plank is laid. Also the caulk thread makes a nice even bead between planks and with a warm plank they can be manipulated into place or re heated if adjustment is required.

The final deck was varnished three times.  Selection of colours is available in the veneer  tape to suit ones colour scheme.  Am sure I am not the first to do it this way but is is very easy, non messy and professional looking in my opinion.



I will post some photos if you would like

Just my 2 kiwi dollars worth!! ( do not have 2 cents these days sorry )

VANYA

P.S I used mums iron..... Which I still have!!


: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 08, 2013, 17:39:26
VANYA.  That is an excellent suggestion.  Thanks for that.  It is always good to hear how people do things.  I am a complete novice and would welcome any tricks of the trade.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: VANYA February 08, 2013, 19:21:02
Very happy to help out our Trans-Tasman friends.

Do you have a local sailing club in Sydney??

I visited one club located at Scarbrough Park, Rockdale who seemed quite active years back. A good collection of models and a nice location.



VANYA

: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Antipodes February 12, 2013, 13:18:09



I will post some photos if you would like



Yes please - and also where you got the iron on veneer? Was that just a local hardware store?
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: VANYA February 12, 2013, 16:49:53
The veneer was bought a a tape, about 25-30mm wide and you just by what you need. Quite cheap I think.

Got mine from Mitre 10 or Placemakers but any joinery shop or outlet should have it. I think veneer is also sold in sheets but just use the tape. Make up a jig to get the width as desired and away you go.

The iron temperature can be tested and I guess you can use a model plane shrink film iron too for the tight spots. Does not need to be too hot.

Will try to get the phots on tonight.

VANYA
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 12, 2013, 20:38:42
You bring up a good point Vanya.  I have no idea about Sydney model boat clubs.  I know there are facilities in Norwest and Narrabeen around Sydney that I have seen while driving around, but I do not know anymore.  Perhaps spme research is required on my part.   :)

The ideas behind your vaneer apprach are great.  Thanks for sharing.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: VANYA February 13, 2013, 01:31:22
Hi,

I have here some photos of the hatch cover and wheel house of my J Class sail boat. Sorry it is not the deck as I do not have the boat at home at present.

It is a varnished finish but you can also not varnish it too I guess to make it matt and more real.

Hope this helps.

VANYA
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 13, 2013, 19:21:34
VANYA - that is lovely work.  I like!   ;)
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: zeevaart1 February 14, 2013, 00:55:36
VANYA,very nice woodwork.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: VANYA February 14, 2013, 01:02:49
Thank you too.

Your work is also very , very good as we have viewed on this forum.

 This is the good part of the hobby that there are many different skills we can learn, and also we can pass our discoveries onto other fellow model makers.

Best regards

VANYA
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 14, 2013, 15:42:29
No build update unfortunately, as with back to school etc there has been no real time to sit down and do work on the tug.
However, a nice parcel arrived from the UK yesterday.  As lights are being fitted, it is good to get the wiring down around the bridge before it gets sealed up and painted.

The wheel, searchlight and horn is Graupner branded.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 14, 2013, 15:44:49
MTroniks sound and Graupner smoke generators will be fitted.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 14, 2013, 15:48:20
I found these lovely Mantua Fittings portholes and aero-naut tyres.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 24, 2013, 18:03:22
To get some practice using the airbrush (for me) and to teach the young man how to do it, I purchased some Airfix & Revell kits, which we both built (were cheap at our local hobby shop).  They were a lot of fun, and I think Airfix & Revell now have a new young fan.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 24, 2013, 18:07:07
The verandas have also been started.  We used some nice stainless steel paint on the grates to give a nice metal look.  Similarly the brass on the wheel seems to have come out well.  It is nice to get the old airbrush out again – and to teach some techniques to the little un. (he also seems to like spraying solvent onto the driveway)

The mast holder was also built.  As per an earlier comment, the wood is in less than ideal condition.  The amount of filler required almost lead me to replace it all with sheet styrene.  But we persisted.

Now a question for you all.  To get a nice finish on the wood I have experimented in using wood stain with lacquer mixed with talc.  It looks rather poor, but when sanded with 1200 grit sand paper and covered with undercoat it seems to successfully hide the look of wood.  Is this a common technique or are there better ways of making wood look like a ship?
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 24, 2013, 18:17:11
Another question for you all. 

I tested the hull in a pool to make sure the drive shaft and rudder were waterproof some time back.  When I was looking at it on the weekend, the propeller would not turn.  I found a small section of the inner shaft had rusted onto the outer-shaft near where the propeller thread is on which a nut is located.   Some WD40 and some elbow grease soon had them apart. They are standard Graupner stainless steel fittings.  Is this typically a problem?

Subsequently I have covered the inner shaft with plumbers grease to reduce any rusting.  I have also contemplated treating it via Bluing (selenium dioxide) to give some additional protection. 
1)   How do others deal with this issue? 
2)   I have also noticed that there is no washer on the inner shaft between the nut (which fits on the hull side of the propeller) and the hull – should there be one?
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Model Tug Man February 28, 2013, 12:29:47
To answer your wood question: sanding sealer is quite useful for this purpose. It is available at most hobby stores and on line.

For the prop shaft question: I have not had any rust issues with the stainless steel shafts on any of my tugs. Are you sure it is stainless? What is the bearing surface made from? Mine are oilite brass bushings.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 28, 2013, 15:54:34
Thank you Model Tug Man
I appreciate the heads up regarding the sanding sealer.

As for the propeller shaft.  Yes I find it curious that I am getting rust.  I think I have the Graupner 410 prop shaft with stern tube http://www.graupner.de/en/products/b5d08e81-ce25-4ebd-9370-6193af870648/410/product.aspx which is supposed to be made of stainless steel and seems to have a brass bearing just where the inner shaft exits and the propeller is mounted.   In fact it was where the inner shaft contacts the brass where it corroded. 

If I do not have the 410 model I have a similar Graupner equivalent that looks the same. 

Do you use any treatment/oil/grease to protect your shafts?  If so what do you use?
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: PHILNZ February 28, 2013, 18:35:41
 ^-^  geapra  Strange that stainless is rusting , one can only imagine that it is a sub standard batch of steel.
I always grease the prop shaft prior to building and after a period of use will draw the shaft out and re grease. Helps prevent water penertration also the small washer between prop and shaft end helps prevent water and some free running.
Good luck with the build

PHILNZ
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Model Tug Man March 01, 2013, 05:29:15
I have a small tube soldered to the shaft log up near the motor end. To that I have zip tied a flexible plastic tube which leads to the deck access. I have a plastic syringe like the ones used for glue which I use to inject vasaline into the shaft log. Non-toxic and easy to clean up. Also, keeps the water out nicely. Does not attack paint or plastic.

Do you run your boat in fresh or salt water?
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: PHILNZ March 01, 2013, 12:35:36
Our local modlers pond is briney as it is feed by salt water but also has fresh water feed. iOur pond is full of weed that the local athurotys wont do anything with and the club is not allowed to treat it with chemicals because of discharge into the sea. I have started useing a council pond/creek  at a local park and that is fresh water and most important no weed.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra March 04, 2013, 19:46:50
Model Tug Man that is a great idea about the feeder tube attached to the prop shaft.  I shall see if I can retrofit something along these lines.
The tug was tested in a salt water pool (hull only as my son and I are still working slowly through the superstructure).  Compared to the ocean the salt level would be much less in the pool. 
PhilNZ - similarly thank you, I think a suitable stainless steel waster is called for.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra March 17, 2013, 19:25:32
The funnel has been filled and sanded.  A Graupner smoke unit is to be installed, with the oil filled through the large protrusion at the front of the funnel.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra March 17, 2013, 19:27:12
More funnel work.  It has now been painted in undercoat.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra March 17, 2013, 19:29:30
The black bands added and trial attachment to the superstructure.
... the white band on the funnel still needs to be pained white via a top coat (as a semi-gloss white)
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra March 17, 2013, 19:34:24
We have also been working on the searchlight as well as the mast holder
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Model Tug Man March 18, 2013, 05:20:36
Coming along nicely.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Antipodes April 07, 2013, 03:48:53
I found these lovely Mantua Fittings portholes and aero-naut tyres.

Hi geapra,

Can you tell me where you got yhese fittings and tyres from?

Kind wish,

Bruce
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra April 17, 2013, 15:44:37
Hi Bruce.  The fittings are all from Cornwall Model Boats http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/
For us in Australia, they represent good value.

PS - sorry for the delayed reply,  I have been out of the country and away from communications.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra May 14, 2013, 16:46:01
Another update.  While things have slowed due to the little un being at school, progress is still happening.  This time the window frames and hatches.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra May 14, 2013, 16:47:55
And a few more photos
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: tugs53 May 15, 2013, 09:05:37
Coming along nicely!
 
Keep the pics and info coming.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 09, 2014, 17:46:55
After being distracted for some time undertaking a car restoration project, I am now able to return to the Bugsier build.

Before I begin again, I am after some advice.  I rigged up the Graupner Speed 600 motor (3x reduction gearbox) that came with the Bugsier and observed that it is rotating far too quickly (no load) to be suitable for a tugboat.  Looking at the product spec it would be spinning in the order of 6000rpm.  I assume this would slow considerably with the drag of water – but in the order of 1000x??  Remember I am a novice to all of this.

Hence I am considering what motor would be suitable?  What no load RPM is suitable for a tugboat?
I have found that there are a number of electronic 12v motors available such as the one here http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=YG2738. Can anyone recommend anything suitable?

BTW - I am using a J Perkins Marine Brushed ESC 5510135.  Continuous max rating is 50A.  Voltage range 7.2-12V
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: 2tugboats September 09, 2014, 19:49:30
Welcome back Geapra. You have been gone a while indeed and I'll bet that car restoration project
has created a fine looking car. . .now back to your fine looking tugboat build.

Keep the pictures coming,
Michael
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: CORONA September 10, 2014, 11:32:44
Geapra,

Yes, 6000 rpm is too fast but not likely by more than a factor of about 2. 
Shoot for something around the 3000 RPM range in a brushed motor at your operating volgate
MFA Como has a motor/gear box combination that should work for you.
Double check the voltage you want to run before you order.
12 volt system and 6x reduction will get you there.
If you happen to have a computer radio that would let you adjust the end point on channel 3 then you could use the set up you have now and set the end point at 50% to get the 3000 RPM mentioned.
Nice build by the way !!

Laurn
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 11, 2014, 17:57:21
Thanks for those hints Laurn.  Really appreciated.

The radio system I have is a Turnigy 6 Channel.  Perhaps not the best for Tugs - but it is the one I already own.  https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=24901
I am not sure of its functionality - but I am assuming that it cannot reduce the end point by 50%.  Am I correct in my assumption - it is a digital proportional system

I should add that I am using a 3 bladed 60mm propeller and would prefer to use ~12v power. 
The battery that I already own is a 11.1v LIPO 5000mAh https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=9515

The Graupner Speed 600 motor that I have has a voltage range of 3.6-8.4v 18,200rpm (no-load max rpm) with a 3x reduction gearbox.  I am also wondering if I can use a potentiometer between the motor and the ESC to slow things down (or a suitable resister).  I presume if I use this approach that I will lose some power efficiency - but perhaps it would be good enough.


: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: CORONA September 12, 2014, 11:49:55
Geapra,

Hmmm....Firstly, - agreed your radio will not allow you to change the end points.  So that option is out.

Although technically your solution to reduce the voltage would work - practically is close to impossible to do.
The potentiometer or fixed resistor would have to be rated for the max. power ( wattage )  you would put through it to the motor, so the wattage rating would be off the charts, and would be half the size of your boat, and yes not efficient use of power at all. 
You have a bit of a mis-match there with voltage ratings between your battery, motor and your ESC, ( Battery rating of 11.1 V and max rating for your motor of 8.4 volts ) then throw in the rating of your ESC of between 7.2 & 12 volts..... They need to all be in the same voltage range.
I am thinking that you should probably change the battery & then either the ESC or the motor, - sorry to say.  I would recommend you go with a nice ( max. size for your hull ) size Gel Cell Battery ( Sealed Lead acid or SLA ) because you will need ballast to get the tug down in the water & of course a voltage source.  Not expensive, heavy, and easy to charge.  They are readily available in 6 volt and 12 volt in various AmpHr ratings. Going with 6 volt ( mounted low in the hull ) would help with your motor speed issue but would not work with the ESC you have.  So now you see where I am going with this.  The Viper product line I see is available to you by one of the site sponsors, Action also available, and there may be others available in Aussy land. Both of those would power your receiver off the main battery as well through the BEC circuit. Important that all the voltage rating match.  Motor should be "roughly" 3000 RPM at the voltage  rating of your battery.
Follow me on the logic ?
Laurn.


: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 12, 2014, 14:46:58
Thanks for that Laurn.  Really appreciated.  As a novice at this who inherited many of these components - I am expecting some miss steps.  It really shows the value of this forum.


: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: CORONA September 13, 2014, 09:44:14
Geapra,

No problem, glad to help.  I certainly stumbled around a bit with my first few systems.  :-[
It is hard to get everything going in the same direction early in the build.
Hopefully the info is timely and you can get some of the rating issues sorted now and arranged in the hull before getting too far ahead.

Further...... ::)
The speed of your motor will be proportional to the voltage, so if you go 6 volt - 6V/8.4V x 18,200RPM/3 = 4333 RPM
Still pretty quick but maybe manageable with a light touch on the control.
Not sure if you want to replace the motor too, ( $$$ racking up ) so leave room around the motor mounting to replace later if you find it too wild to control.

The SLA battery needs to be low in the hull since is so heavy - but will make it stable in the water.
Can't stress that enough.
Your other electronic bits location should be sorted before too long as well.
Access for connections and charging are important to think through.
Hopefully you can lay them out before putting the deck on.
I have checked your log and haven't seen a hull with deck installed, so hopefully.....

Cheers,
Laurn
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 14, 2014, 01:38:52
Again many thanks Laurn.  Really appreciated.

Thankfully the hull is not sealed or anything like that.  All that is installed is the stern post, rugger and anchor tube - so I have full access - and no immediate plans to seal it up at this stage. 

I hunted around some of my other bits and pieces and found a large looking RS-755SH motor that was given to me some years ago.  I do not know its specs.  But I did try it on my 7.2-12v ESC and 11.1v battery.  It spins a lot slower than the Graupner motor - but I cannot tell if it is too slow or indeed if it is suitable for a tug.  I could not stop the shaft with my fingers to measure stall current either - it is strong!  Pictures attached.  I am looking to see if I have an old tape deck counter to work out rpm....  (I cannot find one in my bags of spares yet)

PS - I have attached some pictures of the motor to get some opinions. tested my LIPO battery on my multi-meter - it read as 11.4V output. 

PPS - I also tried an old potentiometer I have laying around - it lit up like a light globe and made lots of smoke :  )  Predictable, given your warning. :)

: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: CORONA September 14, 2014, 19:03:48
Geapra,

I tossed it into Google and look what popped out.

http://kinmore.en.alibaba.com/product/409492267-4/DC_Motor_RS_755SH_With_45_59_Housing_for_Robotic_Lawn_Mower_Food_Machine_Cordless_Tools.html

Rated 24 volts - might do it at some lower voltage.

Laurn
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 14, 2014, 22:11:08
Thanks for that Laurn.   A good pick up - but no prize.

While looking similar, the motor in that link is not the same as the ones I have.  Google/Bing searches seems to suggest that there are many RS-755SH motors out there - with a wide variety of operating voltages.  Looking at the mounting points, I am guessing my motors have come from a sewing machine or a window blind automation drive.

The ones I have (I have 2) have a total length of 87mm and a body only length of 59.9mm.  Diameter is 41.7mm

Could anyone help a newbie out - the numbers on electric motors eg 400, 480, 500, 600, 800, 755 etc do they mean something?  Perhaps rotor diameter, turns ?????

: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Jarvo September 15, 2014, 02:47:55
HI geapra

The motor numbers are a very poor classification. i.e. 400, 500 etc. usually based on size, then voltage. Confused cause so are the rest of us.

If there is a 5 at the end 545, 555 etc. this should mean that it has 5 poles instead of the normal 3.  5 poles give more torque but less revs.

The motor you have shown and the data sheet from the link would indicate it would be very good in a tug, direct drive, on 24volts. The data sheet also said it was good for 4500 revs, of load, with the prop and water drag this will come down to 3 - 3500 revs, prefect with scale large props.

You would need to source a 24v ESC, Electronize do some, my Amsterdam is like this.

Hope this helps

Mark
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 15, 2014, 18:04:50
Thanks Mark.  I was hoping the numbers would be stating something useful - shame that this is not the case.

As for the motor I have, I still do not know its characteristics.  Are there any easy tests to work out if it is a 12, 18 or 24v motor (I have found spec sheets for RS-755SH motors for all of these voltages) and perhaps its working RPM. 
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Jarvo September 16, 2014, 02:55:54
HI Geapra

The RS on the motor code might mean its from RS Components, they are electrical supplies company in the UK, don't know if they are in Auz or not!!!

Try on there web site for the model spec

Mark
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 16, 2014, 15:32:02
Thanks Mark.  A good thought there.
Indeed RS Components has a number of motors that look like the one I have (under the Mellor Electric brand) - but none of the offerings match the dimensions exactly.

Perhaps someone recognises the logo on the sticker attached to the motor?  Below:
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 21, 2014, 16:36:09
Weekend update.

I trial mounted the motor and remote gear in the hull - in preparation for an on-water test.  The motor is held to the hull by blue tack.  Does any of this set-up look like it will not work acceptably?  The original plans have 2x 6v lead acid batteries in series mounted either side of the motor.  If the LIPO does not work out, I will set up the same power source.

I found I was getting too much vibration from the motor to the drive shaft - and hence added a support to the drive shaft (in picture).  This reduced the vibration considerably (although some more balancing and vibration reduction is desirable).  As for motor rpms - my basic judgement it seems to be acceptable, responding well to the commands through the ESC.  Obviously a water test will be needed to validate.  As a reminder - I do not know the technical specifications of the motor.  The motor is strong as well - I could not hold the propeller with my fingers and stall the motor even at very low RPM.

I have mounted the motor in a manner that enables me to change the motor easily - with different motor diameters and lengths easily accomodated.

My plans are to test the hull like this in a pool and work out the location and amount of balast it will need.

My I ask how people estimate the weight/balance of the superstructure when determining the amount and location of the balast.  Do I take what I have built of the superstructure and deck, weigh it, work out the centre of mass and add that to the hull at deck height? 
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Jarvo September 22, 2014, 01:07:23
HI Mate

Some good questions there,  First you said that your vibration problem is still on going, from the photo the motor and shaft are out of line vertically, the motor needs lifting to remove the bend in the U/J.

About the mass balance, ALWAYS keep the top hamper as light as possible, cut holes in bulkheads etc,

Keep all your weight low down alongside the keel, balancing from side to side as well as fore and aft,

Take the waterline from the plans, mark it on the hull, test float it, load it to the water line then weigh how much ballast you have added. weigh the ballast this will tell you how much weight you have to play with, weigh the superstructure deduct from the ballast weight gives you the weight for batteries radio gear ESC etc.

Hope this helps

Mark
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 22, 2014, 14:22:09
Thanks Mark.  You know - I did not notice the angle in the universal joint till you pointed it out.  Thank you.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Cyberdan September 24, 2014, 07:27:07
Thanks Mark.  A good thought there.
Indeed RS Components has a number of motors that look like the one I have (under the Mellor Electric brand) - but none of the offerings match the dimensions exactly.

Perhaps someone recognises the logo on the sticker attached to the motor?  Below:

Hi,

That is surely the Mabuchi logo

Hany
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra September 26, 2014, 23:43:02
Thanks Hany.  I do believe you are correct there.

I wonder if it is an obsolete motor of theirs?  There is no RS-775 SH motor in Mabuchi's current range with a diameter of 41.7mm and the same vent hole arrangement as mine has.    The RS-775 VC / WC that Mabuchi provide in their product descriptions state they have a voltage range of either 6-14v or 9-32v or 9-24v.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra October 08, 2014, 17:44:19
A little more progress.  The steering servo is now fitted and the hull is ready for testing in a pool.

: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra October 08, 2014, 17:49:12
May I please request some information?

The attached picture shows a Bugsier 3 hatch - with rings attached to the top of the hatch.

Could anyone tell me what these are called?  They look like eye pins - but with the rings attached in a non-rigid manner.  I'd like to source some if I can.

Also - does anyone have a good source for scale nuts - again like the ones shown in the attached picture.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: des October 09, 2014, 00:01:23
Those eye-rings look like lashing rings to me.  Or bow-shackles passed through holes in brackets along the edges of the hatch cover - same purpose.  I don't know of a suitable product or source for suitable model bits - maybe someone else can help here.

Check out the model railway press for nut-bolt-washer (NBW) detail parts - these are available in multiple scales which may be suitable for your Bugsier.  Try your local hobby shop first - they are likely to already have an account setup with Walthers in the USA for such parts, but you may have to wait awhile while the shop builds up a reasonable size list to order in.

Des
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra October 26, 2014, 21:47:56
Making progress with the various fittings.
The deck is not attached to the hull as I am still evaluating if the motor I have is suitable. 

I tried the hull in a pool and it did motor along at full speed a bit like a speed boat.  At slow speed it operated nicely.  At present I plan it try an alternate motor I have to see if it operates over a better range of speeds.  I also need to change the rudder to servo connection as what I have installed has proven to flex more than desirable.

: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra October 26, 2014, 21:49:11
Current state of the build
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: fastfaz October 27, 2014, 04:18:27
Hi,
   Just spotted your post and looking at the u/joint your motor seems too low, I fit my motors onto a piece of plywood which is fixed into the hull then pack/lift on thin ply or timber until the motor height is right to line up the connector prop shaft and motor drive spindle. An easy way of doing this is to tape four pieces of wood (say 4mmx1mm) around the connector so that it is stiff then fit it temporarily to the prop shaft and motor this will put the shaft and drive spindle in line then measure the distance under the motor mount to the wooden base pack it to that level and job done. Hope this helps.   
     Cheers,
          Petr.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra October 27, 2014, 13:12:11
Thanks Petr - appreciated.  A great idea.
At present my motor is held in place to the hull by blue-tack - so it is easy to adjust.  But I have been challenged by the uni-joints flexibility - you just solved that.  Brilliant.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: fastfaz October 28, 2014, 05:16:59
Hi again,
      Another method to get the level exact (and you can remove the base at a later date if needed) is to set the motor up as I said and sit the wooden base on Silicone pressing down until you get the level required. Just remember you cannot paint over silicone but the bonus is it has some flexibility even after it has set (24 hours I leave it). If you need to remove the wooden base for some reason you can, with a bit of force, break the silicone seal and take out the base. It sticks to most things but not if the surface is wet. Good luck.
    Cheers,
        Peter, (spelt right this time)
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra October 29, 2014, 22:14:59
Thanks for that suggestion Peter.  Appreciated. 
Any help is really welcome as I have never built one of these before - so am learning as I go.
My son is also picking up a wonderful set of wood/plastic/metal working modelling & painting skills as well.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra November 02, 2014, 19:20:44
Some more progress with the superstructure
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra November 02, 2014, 19:25:53
I am considering repacing the motor with one listed below as my existing one is running the boat too fast. 
Has anyone any views as to sutability (my speed controller is 7.2-12v, 50A)?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-2300-RPM-Cylindrical-Permanent-Magnet-Micro-DC-Motor-DIY-Hobby-/351087216127?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item51be6dc5ff#ht_1857wt_1362 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-2300-RPM-Cylindrical-Permanent-Magnet-Micro-DC-Motor-DIY-Hobby-/351087216127?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item51be6dc5ff#ht_1857wt_1362)


The specs are:
Product Name DC Motor
Rated Voltage DC 12V
Speed 2300±10% RPM
Mounting Screw Hole Diameter 3.5mm/0.1"
Screw Hole Center Distance 30mm/1/2"
Knurled Shaft Size 5 x 11mm/ 0.2" x 0.4"(D*L)
Body Size 44 x 66mm/ 1.7" x 2.6" (D*H)


: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: Calimero November 03, 2014, 02:51:29
Google tells me your Bugsier 3 comes with a 60mm prop, is that right ?

2300 rpm (at no load though) with your 3S LiPo should look decent. Might be a little on the short side for heavy towing but should be adequate for sailing on her own.

Shoudn't be an issue for your ESC.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: fastfaz November 03, 2014, 04:36:17
 ^-^,
    Re your motor I have a Caldercraft 900 in my Lowgarth the tug is 950mm long and I run it on a 12volt 7amp lead acid battery, it doesn't have a load of lead to ballast it because I spent a lot of time getting everything in its right place (running time is hours not minutes). In the post it mentions a Lipo battery sounds very unusual for a tug, most people use lead acid so less ballast needed. This is a photo on the pond of my Lowgarth at approx. 1/3rd throttle, on full throttle she makes a proper tug bow wave and loads of torque. Hope this helps.
       Cheers,
              Peter.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra November 03, 2014, 13:45:07
Thanks Calimero & fastfaz for your kind replies.  (nice pic fastfaz - looks the goods)

I can confirm that I am using a 60mm propeller. 

... and the reason for the LIPO is that I already owned it from an earlier project (now disposed of), and have the appropriate charging hardware, alarm etc.  An investment in Lead Acid gear I am trying to avoid on cost grounds.  I understand that by using LIPO I will need to balast with dead weight and this may cause packaging issues.  If I cannot get it to work well, I will reverting to a more traditional set up (just trying to avoid the expense).  PS the LIPO is rated at 5000 mAH - so should provide OK running time.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: tugs53 November 03, 2014, 20:13:52
Nice work geapra
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 26, 2015, 21:46:24
Unfortunately progress over the Christmas break hit a concrete wall - due to a painting failure.

While the paint that I was using went on a number of the separate deck fittings without issue, I experienced a mixture of orange peel and runs on the superstructure.  Strange to get both issues at once. 

Consequently it is back to bare wood to prepare for painting again......  The photos tell the story.  Dropping the superstructure while sanding damaged the upper deck as well - so these are being re-made.

Hopefully back on track over the next few weeks.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 17, 2016, 21:34:10
Progress has started again during the Christmas break.
The will inform as to what progress has been achieved.
At least the paint has behaved itself this time around. 

: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: 2tugboats January 18, 2016, 08:48:38
Excellent work Geapra and a pleasure to see your tug taking fine shape.

Michael
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: sea monkey January 18, 2016, 17:10:49
Good to see that you are back in the saddle.
Is the apprentice still helping? He would almost be out of his time by now.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 18, 2016, 21:33:54
Oh yes - the 11 year old (now) is still working with me.  However it is a little harder to get him away from various computer distractions.  I'll keep at it as it is a nice thing to do together.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 27, 2016, 14:34:43
Another quick update.  The tow gear has been assembled, although there are some minor parts to add.
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra January 31, 2016, 18:40:52
And some work with the protective cage under the tow gear and some vents
(I just noticed the yellow paint specs on the last photo.  They must have come off my fingers - will need to remove them)

: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 23, 2016, 22:05:09
A little more progress. 

Painted the portholes
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra February 23, 2016, 22:23:51
And installed them on the hull and hatches

: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: 2tugboats February 24, 2016, 10:57:58
Inspirational Geapra. . .thank you for sharing. It is quite refreshing for me to
examine your work and fine new ideas that fit perfectly towards what I am
working on and trying to figure out and all.

Michael
: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra March 31, 2016, 19:29:04
Another update.  Finally some portholes and windows

: Re: Graupner Bugsier 3 build by a novice and son
: geapra March 31, 2016, 19:32:16
and some more photos