Tug Forum

Tug Forum => NEWBIES - START HERE ! => : Toby August 15, 2016, 20:26:08

: Ship's boats
: Toby August 15, 2016, 20:26:08
My project continues with Danube V/VI and like most modelers always have a couple of aspects going for we all have to wait for glue or finishing resin or paint to dry before proceeding. Whilst waiting for the rudder to dry before priming  and then adding riveting to it i have turned my attention to the ship's boats.

These for my boat appear to be clinker double-bow ed boats and working on the size of 9 1/2".

Shape:
On the steam tug boats of the thirties were the bow posts vertical and with a rounded corner to the keel spar or were the posts obliquely angled.

Colour scheme:
I have seen on one of the Danube tugs such boats with red coating below the waterline but as this was a late photograph  I assume that the ship's boats would originally have been white on the outside.
For the inside would this have been white or a cream.
Fittings
Would there have been polished wood. Interior construction seats floor planks etc. The floor wooden planks or wooden or metal grating?
Would the metal fittings for oars etc have been brass or iron.

Were these boats tiller-less or had a tiller.

Was the name of the tug painted on the bow or painted onto a plaque then fastened to the boat or engraved into boat or plaque.

Regards
Toby


: Re: Ship's boats
: Gerhardvienna September 26, 2016, 06:34:38
Hi Toby

Maybe this link to the Royal museums greenwich will help you out:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/67477.html

Regards
Gerhard
: Re: Ship's boats
: 2tugboats September 26, 2016, 08:08:08
Toby, your first paragraph pretty well described my morning painting chains
and parts so they will be dry for there next step.

As I read your request for information about your model tug's boats. I assumed
someone here on the Forum would just write you the shapes and name places
that you seek. And then I read Gerhard's simple and very much to the point
recommendation to just go to the Royal Museum and see a picture of a model
like your project; a picture worth a thousand words.

Only here on the Forum can I see a set of questions answered so perfectly.
Thank you Toby and Gerhard for working it out so well, I learned much
also.

Michael
: Re: Ship's boats
: Gerhardvienna September 26, 2016, 10:10:06
Hi Michael

That`s how I do it always. Watch out for the museum`s pages, there are so much hints to find. In my " other life" I plan a 1:50 scale model of the prussian SMS DANZIG, searching since over 5 Years.  So I`ve got a lot of expirience in searching out for things, and why not share them to others.

Regards
Gerhard
: Re: Ship's boats
: model tugman September 26, 2016, 10:30:39
The Danube tugs boats were painted white,and kept covered at all times with gray canvas covers,and the were wooden clincher built when first built but in later life they had steel boats.
: Re: Ship's boats
: model tugman September 26, 2016, 10:31:46
Another picture and an early black and white with the wooden boats.
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby September 26, 2016, 19:11:25
Hallo Gerhard,
Vielen dank für ihre Nachricht und Link zur Website an das Schifffahrtsmuseum Greenwich.


Das war sehr nett von Ihnen!


Leider es scheint mir das es ist kein sog Schiff's modell gebaut wann die originale war. 

Das Modell ist einfach und klein und leider ist es nicht ein sehr genaues Modell wann man es zu Fotos vergleicht. Schade, für es natürlich ein
hübsch Modell ist , aber gerade nicht zuverlässig; das Detail welche ich suche, gerade ist nicht da.



 Im Text aus des Museums es heißt es dass das Modell es unbekannter Herkunft ist usw.



Jedenfalls,  für beobachtet! 

Durch die Art und Weise wie kamen Sie auf diese Informationen?


Alles Gute


Toby



Hello Gerhard and Michael,


Thank you for the message and website link. 

That was very kind of you and thank you for taking the time to let me know about it. 


It was very interesting. 

Unfortunately it seems that it is not a  so-named ship's model,  the type built certainly of famous ships.


The model is simple and small and is not very accurate generally when compared with photos.

It is a pityfor it is apretty model but just not reliable;  the details i would like to have sewn are not there.

In the text is states that the model is of unknown origin etc. 


Anyhow, well spotted by you!  By the way, just how did you come across the information?


Thank you again. Much appreciated! 

Glad I am not alone in my first paragraph Michael
Toby

 
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby September 26, 2016, 19:22:46
George
Delightful photos. Lovely sense of period atmosphere. Summer halcyon days one would think.

So no tiller appears to be shown.  I cannot see attachments as though tiller wad stored under the canvas until required.  Name of the tug does not seem to be replicated in the ship's boats.

White on the outside but what about inside?  All painted wood or all painted except for perhaps varnished wood seats,  capping. Grating or paled floor?
: Re: Ship's boats
: model tugman September 26, 2016, 22:59:53
Hi Toby . Painted inside with the same colour as the main casing brown. rudder and oars stored under the canvas.all very basic as working on the river and estuary they probably hoped never to use them.
I remember when I was younger on my 13th birthday actually, My Dad who was chief engineer on a tug at the time was standing by as the tug was having a refit at Ramsgate, and they lifted the lifeboats into the water alongside and they actually sank, where they had been in the davits for years alongside the hot funnel and in the summer sun all the seams. And planking had dried out, that was a bit of a shock to a young lad at the time, it was not until I was a bit older that I learnt that on ships at sea with wooden boats ,the norm was to keep water in them at all times to keep them tight,
Geo.
: Re: Ship's boats
: Gerhardvienna September 26, 2016, 23:07:01
Hi Toby

I just found that by typing "Tugboat Danube V/VI" at google. The builder of the model is named as "Unknown" , but I expect the model as a shipyard model for the future owner, made by Cochrane and sons. Maybe I`complete wrong with that, here comes the text from the museum

"Scale: 1:48. Builder's full hull model representing the 'Danube V' and 'Danube VI' (both 1935), tugs. It is a superb model of a perennially popular subject among modelmakers, particularly among working model enthusiasts. The example here is very fine with its gold-plated fittings, applied penwork to the superstructure, intricately made fittings and virtually flawless paintwork. The ‘Danube V’ and ‘Danube VI’ were designed for the Tilbury Contracting and Dredging Company for their own business, and built by Cochrane & Sons, Selby, and measured 110 feet in length and just over 240 gross registered tons. Both tugs were a common sight on the River Thames and approaches to it. During the Second World War ‘Danube V’ towed the Mulberry Harbour units and ‘Danube VI’ took part in the D-Day landings. Both tugs became the property of Westminster Dredging Ltd., in 1965, and were scrapped three years later in Belgium.
Read more at http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/67477.html#5Cieu53XqEpsdKl5.99 "

Most of that models were made for the reason of just showing the owners what they will get, and for their offices to let the customers know what the owners do.

Best regards
Gerhard
: Re: Ship's boats
: model tugman September 26, 2016, 23:59:03
Pictures of the model that Gerhard is referring too, as he says it is probably the builders model to give an impression of the tug ,rather than looking at drawings.
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby September 27, 2016, 18:16:54
Hello George.

I have uploaded the photos for reference albeit add having built this model yourself there are a number of things which appear not to tally with that line drawing or the photos we have observed. This is why to date I had thought that this was a general model donated rather than it being The shipsmodel as we generally associate with drawing office/shipyard models.

No fly bridge being the first 'omission'.

Anyhow they will be useful  as all input helps to confirm or deny model matters.
A close-up of the rudder mechanism along the deck would have mem interesting.

Re the rudder on the life boats did the rudder have the pins and the boat have hoops in which the pins dropped into our visa -versa.

Toby
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby September 27, 2016, 18:20:11
The bit about the lifeboat must have been a shock to you. I wonder how long before you dared jump in a boat after that.

I never knew water was kept in the life boat to maintain the planks tightness.

T
: Re: Ship's boats
: model tugman September 28, 2016, 02:40:00
there is no rule of thumb about the rudder pointless as I have seen them both ways.
: Re: Ship's boats
: Gerhardvienna October 16, 2016, 00:23:57
Hi Toby

Here I found more about the Danube - named tugs, hope it helps!
http://thamestugs.co.uk/T--C---and--D--LTD.php

Regards
Gerhard
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby October 17, 2016, 16:47:06
Gerhard
Thank you that is a super site for these tugs. I shall have to keep an eye out for some better photos of the early Danube from which a model could be built whilst I am collecting info on the others.  Danube one and two look nice but would need some other photos but presume they would be rare if those on the site are the best they could find of Danube 1 and 2. The ones of five and six are good for the current project.

Thank you

Toby
: Re: Ship's boats
: Gerhardvienna October 18, 2016, 02:25:56
Hi Toby

I always watch out for the threads and posts I have been writing in. So I can collect the most things in my favorites list, and add some more infos to it. This things also help me finding new projects for my building list, next after the Bison will be a1:50 full scale model of the NORDIC, for that ship I have collected over 200 photos, a lot of pdf files and all the original catalogues I could find about the engines and electronics.
Hope you can find more and better photos from your danube-projects!

Regards
Gerhard
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby October 18, 2016, 02:47:42
Nordic. ...is that the 2010 or 2013 vessel?  If that the latter then that is to be about 2m in length.  One large model!
: Re: Ship's boats
: Gerhardvienna October 18, 2016, 08:13:37
Nordic. ...is that the 2010 or 2013 vessel?  If that the latter then that I'd about 2m in length.  One large model!

Just the 2010 ship, in "my" scale she will be 1,56 meters. See the link: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_(Schiff)
A friend from another forum has worked on that ship, he sent me a lot of photos, but not for use in forums. It will be a long time of work to make her!

Regards
Gerhard
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby October 18, 2016, 09:46:51
Dear Gerhard,
A super vessel! Very impressive and it will make a great model. And you have plans drawings etc. Lucky you!

I looked at the photos via the search Nordic schiff and Nordic ship and there are some fantastic photos generally.  Then I came across a few great photos which likely you will have seen but just in case you haven't the link is :

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/auto/notschlepper-nordic-geruestet-fuer-den-ernstfall-1.1077357

I shall be watching the build when you commence it and show us done pictures.

Toby
: Re: Ship's boats
: Gerhardvienna October 18, 2016, 11:09:47
Hi Toby

More lucky me....
I also have a goos adress where to buy a 1:200 card model of the ship, and a very good printshop where I let all the cards size up to 1:50. The plans  I get are in 1:75 and they will be sized up to 1:50 measure too. Thank you for the link, there was one photo I did not have before, pic No.: 2 one engine maybe whilst it is mounted.

Regards
Gerhard
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby April 05, 2017, 19:18:39
I have noticed in a photograph of the tug, Perseverance, that the hulls of the ship's boats appears to be not white but black over white.

Does anyone know whether the black was just a broad stripe or did it go up to the gunwales. Was the top surface of the frame white? Difficult to tell,  but the black does appear substantial in the photo.

I ask, for I have never seen previously and assumed all ships boats were white all over; well white outside and likely superstructure colour inside.

What was the reason for the Royal Navy to paint the ship's boats in this fashion?

Toby
: Re: Ship's boats
: des April 05, 2017, 22:57:40
Hi Toby

Not a good photo really, is it - very grainy.  Are you sure that isn't just a tarp draped over the boat?  After all, it doesn't seem to make sense that a ship's boat- either a work boat or a life boat  - should be painted black;  the whole object is that it should be visible while in the water.  A dark painted boat would be difficult to spot from a ship's deck or wheelhouse in poor visibility.

Des.
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby April 06, 2017, 04:33:04
Hi Des

The photo is grainy because it is cropped and zoomed in. Even so i think that is it possible to discern a difference of tone between the tarp and the paint of the wooden boat.

Actually Des, I believe that I have just answered one of my questions! SEE the next picture.


So the only question needing to be answered is WHY the upper was painted black .

Clearly another error on most, if not all models of Perseverance (RN tugs?), one assumes.



Toby
: Re: Ship's boats
: des April 06, 2017, 17:54:30
Yes, you're right.  There is a tarp draped over the boat, but the upper part of the boat's hull is definitely painted a dark colour - presumably black or very dark grey.

Des.
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby April 06, 2017, 23:26:36
No thoughts as to why, Des? Any Royal Navy buffs out there know the answer?
: Re: Ship's boats
: 2tugboats April 12, 2017, 06:52:35
I notice that the tarp cover for the ship's boat is well designed. As to the boat's paint
scheme, it looks to me to be backwards. Dark on top is more difficult to see and the
bottom scuffs and all will show up more on the white color.

I'd be interested in hearing from those in the know, the reasoning for the color choices,
Michael
: Re: Ship's boats
: olscuzbut April 12, 2017, 07:26:53
Stealth mode from above and below!!!
: Re: Ship's boats
: FredY April 12, 2017, 08:18:28
I have seen boats on RN warships painted dark blue above the waterline and white below, but never seen black painted boats.  As for tugs, the Mersey tugs boats were all white and Rea tugs  always painted the inside of the boats with funnel paint which was an orange red colour.  Some tugs had the underside between the chocs painted black because it was hard to sugee under there!
Fred
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby April 12, 2017, 09:07:31
Hello Fred,

Thank you for contributing to this topic!

Interestingly this tug when built was destined for Tanganyika and on completion arrived there in 1931. However it came about, and for whatever reason, the Admiralty /Royal Navy purchased the tug in 1932, re-named it, Perseverance, and based it at Chatham Dockyard.

I am interested to learn of this trait of Royal Navy ship's boats being painted blue over white;  might you be suggesting that the ship's boats on this RN tug be rather likewise painted than black. It could well be, for until such can be clarified from the B&W photo my suggestion of black over white was a presumption that likely the photo was indicating black.

Perhaps others may be prompted to share their knowledge.

I have heard too that the inside of ship's boats was painted superstructure/funnel colour.

Toby
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby April 12, 2017, 09:16:14
Starboard and port  ship's boats on Perseverance
: Re: Ship's boats
: Toby April 12, 2017, 11:50:13
Stealth mode from above and below!!!


That is a concept!  Stealth by the RN at night. Upturn the boat in daylight for greater visibility and hide underneath.     :)