Tug Forum

Specialist Types Of Tug Boat => Ocean Going Tugs => : Studiojohn January 28, 2017, 13:16:08

: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn January 28, 2017, 13:16:08
Hi All

I thought I would share my Lloydsman build as I go along. This is my first tug as I normally build warships, but the Lloydsman was present in the Icelandic cod war so that's a good enough reason for me start! My intention is to 3D print as many pieces as is practical (and within my capabilities). For those that would ask I have a dual head Felix 3 (upgraded) which I absolutely love. I print in PLA because compared to ABS its not toxic and in any case I have it installed in my library.

I obtained the Hull from Kingston Mouldings just prior to his announcement that he was retiring. Having stockpiled as many photos as I could I made a start by printing the Kort nozzle

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/KortNozzle.JPG)

Hope this of interest to you

Cheers

John

Of course just printing the PLA and trying to use that doesn't really work so I painted it with epoxy resin and then it will be sanded and painted as usual when fitted to the Hull

Some components take a long to print so while I work on one thing I print another and next I printed the Breakwater. No particular reason for this but st starts the ball rolling so to speak.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Breakwater.JPG)

: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn January 28, 2017, 23:21:33
More progress. I drew up some sort of support for the Kort Nozzle and printed it.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/KortNozzlebase.JPG)

Seems to work ok so attached it to the Hull.

I also printed up a fairing for the drive shaft and fitted that to the stern post, which was a bit of a headache as when I came to add the rudders and the nozzle I discovered that the sternpost isn't central or symmetrical but it doesn't look too bad. The rudders were 3d printed with a hole for the 4mm brass rod and simply cyano'd to the brass. I had already fixed the position of the rudders and installed the gear mechanism but I will post that later.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Rudders.JPG)

A bit of resin on the surface, a quick rub down and ready for a spoonful of filler to fair in the nozzle. It was at this time this point that I realised I had to attach the prop as it is too big to offer through the smaller end of the Kort nozzle! Also I couldn't fit it through the larger end because of the drive shaft fairing. So I had to fix the prop (with threadlock) before I attached the nozzle knowing that if it did come off at least I wouldn't lose it.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Prop.JPG)

The only thing that remains is to fabricate the lower attachment points for the 5 rudders. Back to the drawing board

Cheers
John



: Re: Lloydsman Build
: sea monkey January 29, 2017, 10:44:39
Very interesting! I'll be following your 3D printing progress. What drawing program are you using?
Steve
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn January 29, 2017, 13:15:09
Steve

For design, I am using Geomagic Design. I tried all the usual programs like Autocad,turbocad,solidworks etc but I just didn't understand them at all and couldn't get going. I then came across a hobby version of Alibre (as it then was) and the rest as they is history. Within 3 hours I had grasped the concepts of 3D designing and have never looked back. I have since had various upgrades to the professional version I now use. The printing software which controls the Felix 3 is the free program called Repetier which I found fairly simple to use.

Hope this helps

regards

John

: Re: Lloydsman Build
: 2tugboats January 29, 2017, 21:11:07
Thank you for the very informative sharing here on the Forum John. For a guy
like me who knows everything, it is embarrassing to see that indeed, I do not
know everything. Your tugboat work with 3D is super and inspires tons of
new ways to create and build one's tugboat to a perfect completion, thank you.

Michael
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn January 30, 2017, 00:48:40
Michael

Thank for you for your gracious comments. I am not entirely sure that perfect completion will be achieved however! As is ever the case I don't really have enough proper information regarding plans and drawings etc, hence the original reason for joining this forum. Still I will persevere and hope that enlightment is within sight.

regards
John
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn January 30, 2017, 08:03:44
Hello again

Moving ahead with more printing while I finish the installation of the rudders etc. I thought the midships bulkhead might a good place to start as it would then be ready for when the subdecks are glued in. I only had the photos to go by so I am sure there is a lot more detail I could print if I only knew about it. I forgot to add a shelf for the sub deck fixing so I just glued in a piece of liteply to act as a bearer

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/MidshipsBulkhead.JPG)

The Funnels and Aft Control room came next. I printed them separately simply because of the time factor. Each funnel was about 11 hours and if I had tried to print the Funnels and Aft control room as a single piece it would have been over 24 hours. Now that isn't actually an issue as the machine is perfectly capable of doing it but occasionally the filament decides to break and if this happens after 23 hours one is not amused. Also they can be post processed and painted separately before the final assembly.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Funnels.JPG)

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/AftControlRoom.JPG)

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/FunnelsAftControl.JPG)

Back to the shed now for more building

John

: Re: Lloydsman Build
: sea monkey January 30, 2017, 10:11:34
I know what you mean about some of the programs being un-intuitive. I've tried several and they are definitely not straightforward. I'm struggling with SketchUp at the moment but I'll might have to try and find a Mac version of Geomagic.
Can PLA be sanded?
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn January 30, 2017, 11:14:31
Interesting question. In my experience not easily. A rough abrasive will tear the plastic leaving a very fibrous edging which is difficult to deal with. With a very fine file you can sometimes get a smooth edge or surface but the point is that if the piece is drawn and printed correctly you shouldn't need to sand.
I have also tried the sanding sticks which you can get in various grades and I have had some partial success.

The main reason for sanding presumably is to get a surface prepared for painting. Some primer fillers will stick to the PLA (after a rough sand to break the surface) but I prefer to seal the shiny PLA surface first. You only need a very small amount in a thin layer.

My method is to paint with epoxy resin to seal the surface (ie the lines left by the deposition layers) and then give it 2 or 3 coats of primer/filler which of course is easily sanded to give the desired finish. You can also sand the epoxy skin of course and indeed reapply further layers to build up the required surface.

Any pieces which need to be joined can be done with P38 or similar and therefore fillets or fairings are easily formed using the filler.  There are numerous fillers and compounds on the market which may or may not be suitable for use with PLA, but generally I stick to epoxy resin for the initial sealing surface and then either epoxy filler (resin and silica for example) or P38 (my preferrred polyester filler). I have used the polyester filler directly onto the PLA with reasonable success but I would not use just normal polyester resin directly as the extra heat generated during curing may adversely affect small (ie thin) parts. Epoxy resin doesn't generate anywhere near the same amount of heat during curing as polyester resin and therefore I stick to what I have proven to work.

I have also experimented with acetone as way of levelling the deposition lines but I found it was too difficult to precisely control its effect.

I am not an expert in this field but if it works for me.....

John
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn February 18, 2017, 06:06:00
Hi there

Started to work on the Running Gear etc next and fitted up the Rudders operating mechanism. I can't take any credit for this as I copied this system from another build on another forum.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/RudderMech.JPG)

Motor and Shaft installed also. I had a Torpedo 850 Geared laying around so decided to install that and run it on a 6 Volt to begin with and see how it goes. I will need a 12 Volt  to run the smoke system but that comes later.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Motor.JPG)

In the meantime I also drew up and printed some working (that is to say hollow) Vents in 3 pieces. It seemed to work Ok and will allow any heat to escape as there are several of these on the ship. The centre piece in the Main Shaft is only there for printing purposes as a temporary raft and will be removed when the Vents are assembled.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Vent1.JPG)

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Vent2.JPG)

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Vent3.JPG)

Finishing off the Kort Nozzle and Rudder Installation now ready for the first Water test

: Re: Lloydsman Build
: sea monkey February 18, 2017, 12:05:42
Read work on the ventilator.
Have you thought about selling them through Shapeways?
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn February 18, 2017, 13:03:49
Kind thought Sea Monkey but in in my other life I am Scale Warship
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Kev30 February 19, 2017, 01:55:19
Interesting work there with the 3D printer I haven't seen anyone yet or perhaps I should say noticed anyone using them for there own personnel use on there building project on boats. I've just turned the big 50 so perhaps its time to look up and see what technology is available, having said that I was very interested in a laser cutter when I saw them up at the Harrogate show 4 years ago but then I thought I need to get trained up in Autocadd to be able to program it and I could build a boat in that time?
Nice work though with your build.

Regards
Kevin
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn February 19, 2017, 03:00:50
Hi Kevin

Funny you should mention a laser cutter as I am about to have the portholes and windows etc cut for the Lloydsman in 2mm Acrylic. I don;t have a laser cutter myself but I do have access to one (A4 size). I have yet to draw up the brass etch portholes and window frames yet but I hope to do that later this week. As soon as I receive the windows I will post up a pic. 3D printing is not the answer to everything nor is the laser cutter but they do complement each other very well. I do have a CNC router which I prefer to use for wood and ply parts but you cant beat the laser for acrylic work and especially small parts

John
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn April 22, 2017, 10:27:10
Hi All
Sorry for the delay but been keeping busy, I am sure you all know how that happens. Made a lot of progress on printing the superstructure now. I found that I had to reprint a few changes as some of my ideas didn't seem to work so well. Now I think I have solved them to my satisfaction and I can start to think about detailing and finishing.

The main problem with the superstructure is that I had to print the lower parts in 3 separate pieces as my print bed is only an 8 inch cube.

I started with the rear part under the funnels and then printed the centre. This first picture shows my first attempts at joining them.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Rear2join.JPG)

I then had a rethink and reprinted the 2 rear parts this time with the roof drawn in. By printing the part upside down the roof (ie the next deck), is very smooth and also can contain locating holes for the next level fittings eg the funnels and vents etc. In this next photo I have glued in the locating stubs for the funnels, vents and engine house skylight. Every part is painted with XTC epoxy and all parts which need gluing together also using XTC.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/rear2.JPG)

To complete the lower structure I added the front part which didn't have the roof (deck) attached as I printed that separately due to walkway fencing being included in the print.  Although it is possible to print the deck using support material I don't really rate as a solution for these types of components. This photo shows the deck being glued on to the complete first level structure. Note the coaming strips which will help locate the next level

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/walkway.JPG)

Time for dinner!  More later

regards

John




: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn April 23, 2017, 03:51:08
Here is the next level which has been printed and is now in primer. This will fit directly over the coaming seen in the previous picture

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/second.JPG)

The next deck and wheelhouse structure was printed in one piece and includes the bridge wings. Also shown here in primer and will locate on top of the previous part.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/bridgewings.JPG)

Above this is the open bridge and rain guard which I printed separately. Once primed and sanded I will glue them together and locate the assembled part using locating tabs printed on the underside of the rainguard

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Wheeltoprainguard.JPG)

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/Wheelhousetop.JPG)

Here are the wheelhouse and open bridge dry fitted. Note the locating support for the main mast.

(http://www.scalewarship.com/forumimages/Lloydsman/wheelhouseand bridge wings.JPG)

More later

regards
John

: Re: Lloydsman Build
: 2tugboats May 02, 2017, 19:05:16
Thank you for sharing John. Quite educational and your fine photos have given
me lots of new ideas. Keep up the fine sharing here on the Forum.

Michael
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: marky May 03, 2017, 04:37:36
Do you sand your surface  build lines off ? as I have read, though it might not be feasible without a fume cabinet ," using Chloroform heated to 70 degrees C pass the part through the fumes and the surface marks melt away" worth a try if you know any chemists . Also does your printer also print a support structure in another material? as parts I had printed at the local library had support material that melted off when washed in in a mild caustic solution.

Cheers Marky   
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: marky May 04, 2017, 03:14:25
Also forgot to say  I had my parts built in PLA and left them on the window ledge and they have distorted with the heat ,I have since been told that getting them done in ABS would be better as it is stronger and more stable. Any thoughts?

cheers Marky
: Re: Lloydsman Build
: Studiojohn May 07, 2017, 09:27:55
Marky

I don't try to sand the PLA directly as its too fibrous to be effective although very fine papers or files might have some effect. The real secret is to get the part as accurate as possible and then post process.  I use xtc 3d resin (although most epoxy resins would also work I suppose) in very small quantities, then sand that surface followed by filler primer. There are lots of fine surface fillers around but I only use a polyester based filler after sealing the surface first with epoxy. I tried using acetone fumes once as has been suggested but I consider it to be too uncontrollable for satisfactory use.

My printer is a dual head and can print with PVA as a support material, but to be honest I find it doesn't particularly give a good surface finish so I try to design my components to work using PLA only.  I am able to print hollow turrets about 4 inches wide with no problems at all. The Felix 3 won't give the same results that you would get from a Projet etc but the materiel and method of addition is different for those type of printers. 

As regards leaving the parts on a window ledge I have to say that you would get the same result if you left an Airfix kit on the ledge so obviously the answer is not to do it. However once the part is primed and painted it should be much less susceptible to heat. Also, of course when you take you your boat to the lake on a hot sunny day and leave it out in the sun for a few hours lots of other parts would start to do strange things as well. I do not believe that PLA is any better or any worse than any other type of plastic normally used by home hobbyists.

ABS might be more stable and stronger but the printing temperature is hotter than PLA and also gives off toxic fumes. I have my printer in my library so its a personal choice to stick with PLA and I have to say I have had some great results so far. That's not to say I haven't had any disasters but that has not been the choice of plastic just poor drawing and post processing. I will shortly be posting up some more pictures of progress. I have just installed my smoke unit and am currently trying to figure a mechanical connection to link the smoke control to the throttle. The Unit has a control switch which works perfectly well and I just want operate it with a Y lead servo but its not that simple so now looking at a transmitter mixing solution.

For highly detailed small parts or for that matter large items with high level of detail I have them printed on a commercial Projet and then use that as a master to cast in resin.

Hope this helps

John