Author Topic: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive  (Read 5670 times)

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Toby

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Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« on: March 21, 2017, 04:14:41 »
IS THERE A PHOTOGRAPH OF IMARA? HAS ANYONE SEEN OR DOES ANYONE HAVE AN IMAGE OF THIS TUG WHEN BUILT AND SOLD AS IMARA?

I have now acquired some very good photos of the tug as Perseverance taken at various times. They are not easy to find or to buy and yet can obviously be found with some considerable effort. 

Then it dawned on me that if this tug is a popular model as Imara where is the photographic or drawn evidence for the details about this tug?

I have actually now seen the original plans for the tug. The tug plans are dated with the F@F shipbuilders cachet and dated later as well with a cachet for Chatham Dockyard.  The plans are clearly Imara and the name is printed large but crossed out in pencil and substituted with the name PERSEVERANCE.  There is pencil notation about the stern written by an Admiralty official. As these drawings are from the shipbuilders and supplied to the Admiralty on its purchase of the tug clearly they must be definitive as to how the ship was built and fitted out.
There are six sheets but for modellers only two of these are needed. The drawings are of 1:48 scale and very clear crisp drawings.

I took with me a reduced version of the model plan copied on to a large
 tracing  sheet so that I could overlay this on top of the original plan for ease of comparison.

The people at the archive in Woolwich are very friendly and helpful. The room was comfortable and a large desk was available as was ruler and propper weighted strips to hold plan edges. 
Viewing is available between 10-13.00 and 14 -17.00 by appointment.
Immediately in the vicinity are three very pleasant eateries and watering holes and it is an easy walk to the River.
The nearest station is Woolwich Arsenal.
From there is it an easy and short walk.

Contact details:

Jeremy Michell, MA
Historic Photographs and Ships Plans Curator & Manager, National Maritime Museum.
Plansandphotos@rmg.co.uk

Copies of plans can be acquired by ordering from:
Pictures@rmg.co.uk


I believe the current price is £70 for the first plan required and £50 for a second different plan.

It was interesting to learn that I was the first person to request a viewing of the Imara plans, as far their records showed and memories recalled. I am amazed that no other modeller has bothered, for if they had and if no contradictory photo exists of Imara, then one has to conclude the models built have some very visual flaws which are not changes, made post purchase, by the Admiralty. Those changes under Perseverance can only be gleaned from the photographs. Clearly some of those changes thought to be changes because those aspects differ from the Imara kit are in fact not differences at all but how it was built in the first place.

...to be continued


Toby

« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 06:11:42 by Toby »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2017, 04:38:23 »
Plans details listed as Perseverance (1931).

NPN7395 Rigging and Profile, 1931 1:48
NPN7396 Profile and Decks,    1931 1:48



Other plans are:
Docking plan and sections
Sections
Shell expansion
Lines,  body 1/2 breath
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 06:12:40 by Toby »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 04:53:45 »
The Imara plan states: 109ft BP.
The plan drawing at 1:48 concurred measuring 27 1/4" from bow post to rudder post;   48scale×27.25" = full-size1308" ~ 109ft. Thus 1308" ÷32scale = 40.875" BP/ 1038.22mm BP for Imara and Perserverance 32 scale models.

Must measure my model....I have got a feeling that it may be a little short but I may be pleasantly surprised.

Details on the plan:

From DRG No 1 General arrangement NPN7396
FLEMING &FERGUSON Ltd
Dredge Builders
Phoenix Way
PAISLEY
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 18:01:30 by Toby »

2tugboats

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2017, 14:40:59 »
Hello Toby. . .I'm sure you must have seen this article in "Model Boats Magazine" but
if not there is mention of the builder of a kit changing things to match the real one.

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/news/article/imara-to-perseverance/7575

Your Imara is going to be a masterpiece Toby,
Michael
Yet another case of why men and women go down to the sea in ships. . .A pleasure to be here and smell the salt air. Thank you Tugboat Forum. . .Michael in Anacortes, Washington www.twotugboats.com

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2017, 15:46:09 »
Hello Michael,
I don't sadly have the ability to make masterpieces. I am just average I think.  A few may say I am a closet perfectionist but getting the brain and the fingers to agree with the mind's eye is not always easy.
Thank you for kindly sending to me that article.  I have just read the article which was very interesting indeed but the model was alas not a very accurate model of Perseverance at all.  It is not an accurate Imara either basing such an opinion on the original plans of Imara seen and the photos of Perseverance in my possession.

By the way Michael, I am aiming to create a model  of Perseverance rather than Imara.

When finished I shall return to the Danube V.

I wonder if any in the forum would be interested in reading about the observations about Imara / Perseverance I have made.  I could write about things section by section of the boat. Anyone thinking of buying a new or ready built would then know what needed to be corrected.

Toby
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 06:17:49 by Toby »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2017, 13:10:34 »
I was pleasantly surprised, for, the BP measurement of the model equated quite well to the plan, measuring 1045mm, and thus only about 7mm longer than the plan.

Toby
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 16:05:48 by Toby »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2017, 18:07:23 »
Well Michael, it would seem once again that although many have looked at this topic, have, similarly to the enquiry about a database of tugs in books, chosen  not to declare any interest. No one has said that they would or would not be interested in my findings for this apparently popular or once popular tug build.  Nor has anyone said whether any one has seen a photo of the tug as Imara.



I shall mention some of my initial observations.



Although some modellers, having seen a general photograph of Perseverance, have pointed out that Perseverance only had 4 wash ports instead of the 6 associated with Imara model, my curiosity about this feature arose once I had a good photo of Perseverance to look at, for it seemed apparent that there had not been any bulwark manipulation where the two other washports had supposedly been removed.  Having now seen the Imara plan,  the reason has become evident, for rather than the six on the model boat plan,  the original drawing has only four.

SO TO CLARIFY, the tug, whether as Imara or Perseverance, ONLY EVER HAD 4 WASH PORTS,  and not 6 for Imara and 4 for Perseverance. This accounted for the reason I could not see any adaptations in the bulwarks of Perseverance.

SO 4 WASH PORTS PER SIDE ONLY and they thus also NEED TO BE REPOSITIONED.  Further these are hinged from behind and not on the face of the wash ports.

Wash ports circa 17mm x 28.5mm (1:32).  They measure about half bulwark in depth.

ALSO in the bulwarks are four oval holes per side (Panama ports? someone let me know the correct term please). THESE ARE the same for 'both tugs' and THEY NEED to be repositioned for accuracy. Also these do not have a rim on the outer face of the bulwark.

THESE STATEMENTS  are correct because the original drawings of Imara 1931 and photographs of Perseverance 1930s 1940s and 1950s show the tug  with the same number of, and positioning of, these bulwark features. 

The small opening in the stern section of the bulwark
has the plate protruding INWARDS and not outwards as seen on some models and seated on it should be a fairlead not a bollard.  Also this opening size needs to be kept narrow for there is a double row of rivets beneath and about the opening and in the case of Perseverance there needs to be enough space between the top of the opening and the capping on the bulwarks to be able to state the name Perseverance in large white capitals centrally.  THIS IS VERIFIED by a portion of video held at the Imperial War Museum LONDON of Perseverance towing HMS BIRMINGHAM on her commission at Chatham Docks.

There is not to much to state of matters below the waterline but the original plans of Imara do show it to be a TWIN SCREW vessel.  On the ORIGINAL PLANS (printed 1:48 scale) these screws measured 60mm and so at the scale of the model (1:32) the screws would be scale at 90mm! I currently have 70mm brass screws but have not decided what it is best to sail with. Perhaps 90mm screws would be both scale and fine to sail with or perhaps it has been found that 70mm screws are best for sailing. Anyhow whatever,  the plans show 90mm ought to be the size for the model.  Further concerning the prop shaft it does seem that it is a more bulky affair at its exit from the Hull, rather than just a thin stuffing tube.
Interestingly the original drawings do not show any detailed A-frame support for the end of the prop shaft. I checked all six drawings.

That completes my observations concerning the props and hull up to the bulwarks. The support brackets, on the bulwark capping, for Samson posts may have to be repositioned as well as the stern fairleads on the capping.

I hope to produce a few drawings from my notes.  I am likely to by a copy of at least one plan from RMG in the near future if my notes and drawings and conclysions are lacking, but they are available to order and purchase by anybody. Details already stated.


Toby
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 16:14:16 by Toby »

des

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2017, 18:20:19 »
Hi Toby

I've kept quiet on this research 'cos I don't know anything at all about earlier steam tugs, much less those built pre-war, on the other side of the world.  But one item struck me in your last post.

On most (all?  I don't remember) of those tugs that I worked on during construction ("modern" '60's, all steel welded, diesel), the prop shaft itself did not exit from the hull penetration.  Rather, the stern tube was carried right through to the propeller boss - this would obviously be bigger than the shaft itself.  There were inner and outer "stuffing boxes" to provide a double seal against sea water entering the hull through the penetration.  The construction and installation of the stern tube would provide the support for the shaft all the way aft to the propeller hub.

I also noticed on one of your earlier posts that Imara / Perseverance had two shafts & props, but only one rudder - most unusual, as this means the rudder could not be located in line with the prop wash, and therefore would be less effective than two, probably smaller rudders would have been.

Des.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 18:23:17 by des »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2017, 19:16:58 »
Hello Des

Good to hear from you!
Hope all is well with you.

What you were saying re outer and inner stuffing tubes I believe is what I was trying to state and perhaps not very well albeit, what we shall call the outer stuffing tube I am not sure went quite the whole length. I am in bed and do do not have info and sketches to hand.  Clearly I am curious as to whether or not A-frames shown and supplied in the Imara kit should be incorporated or not.

Toby


des

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2017, 01:25:42 »
I guess that whether or not there should be an A-frame to support the outer shaft end (or rather, the outer end of the stern tube) would depend largely on the hull shape, and the distance between where the stern tube exits from the hull, to the propeller.  If the distance is relatively short, then an A-frame would not be needed.  But for greater distances a support would be necessary for the outer end to prevent the prop whipping around (even only by a small amount) and thereby destroying the stern tube outer seal and bearing.

Most of the single-screw tugs I worked on during construction did not have an A-frame outer support;  but most of the twin screw tugs did so.  This would be due to the lack of support for the stern tubes for twin screws, where the stern tubes exit the hull.  For a single screw construction, the stern tube runs inside the skeg beneath the hull, and can be stiffened by welding to one or several of the frame members within the skeg.  You can't do that with a twin-screw arrangement.

Des
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 01:29:04 by des »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2017, 16:20:00 »
Sorry that I have not had the time to make any drawings to go along with the text but I shall eventually. Hopefully those building a model and those with one already will readily know the areas and features to which I refer.


I have a moment so thought I would share the research about the superstructure at the stern of Imara/Perseverance.
Essentially of rectangular shape comprising 5 doors and a series of liftable/openable skylight frames.


Most models I have seen online, under either name, feature five  arch-top doors. However,  the original Imara plans show straight-top doors as do the photographs of Perseverance. I think that we can assume that the rather plain doors are the original furniture.

On models these doors feature a porthole/skylight window which is wrong too.   The original plan and the photographs show solid doors without portholes.  The only possible exception is the one door in the aft wall  which gives access to a stair to the engine room.  However, the door to the stair to the crews quarters on the port side does not. So the door on the aft wall is likely without porthole too. From the outside this aft door is marked on the plan to open right to left.

The two doors on the starboard side are to:
Fore door gives access to the hose locker.
Aft door gives access to two latrines.


The two doors on the port side are to:
Fore door gives access to the bosun's store.
Aft door gives access to the stair to the crews accommodation.


On both the fore and aft wall of this superstructure are two large portholes. On the aft wall is the rack for the capstan bars. This is to the left of the door.

With regard to the sloped skylight frames there are errors here.

There are two such frames adjoined to the aft wall. These comprise one liftable lid each,  each lid featuring two portholes/skylights  centrally and horizontally placed side by side.

The similar lids on the one long frame (the length of the structure) on the fore wall are different to the kit plans and all models. The original plan of Imara and the photographs of Perseverance agree.
Along this frame are three openable lids with portholes. However,  rather than the three being identical and the same as those on the aft wall frames and those over the engine room,  they are not.

The three lids comprise two similar ones but not as wide as those on the aft wall and they only have one porthole each centrally placed. Between these is a lid of about 1.5 x width of the outer ones and features two portholes.  While all lids have two hinges and two screw clamps to lock into position this wider one has three hinges and three screw clamps.

On the portside end of the this frame on the fore wall, is a small cupboard of lesser dimensions than the frames and with a door opening right to left.

Hope the information is of interest.


More later.

Toby


« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 12:30:42 by Toby »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2017, 17:13:32 »
For a great aerial photograph of Perseverance here is a link to fotoflite.

http://www.fotoflite.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/BW11451.jpg

The photo looks average in the link but the quality is great of the purchased photograph or file. They may let you have a file
rather than a printed photograph if you ask them.
I found them very helpful and obliging.

This photograph appeared in the book entitled,  Channel Sweep. However, the file or printed photograph is significantly better. DETAIL CAN BE SEEN!!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 12:32:17 by Toby »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2017, 14:58:03 »
Here is a layout of the stern superstructure.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 06:12:13 by Toby »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2017, 17:23:28 »
Photographic view of a part of the stern superstructure.
NB:
the third vent on plan and in photograph. NOT a lamp as in kit.
the straight -edged doors and lack of portholes in them
the liftable skylight and their size and number of portholes
the pipe from the hose locker into the frame

Toby
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 03:36:09 by Toby »

Toby

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Re: Researching Imara/Perseverance 2017 Greenwich Archive
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2017, 00:51:19 »
The above drawing (in scale proportion albeit free-hand) made of the original plan and also the photograph show the design of this section for Imara and Perseverance respectively to have been and remained the same.

Toby

More will follow soon.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 08:51:22 by Toby »